Episode Notes

Dr. Wing Lim takes the lead in interviewing KPMG tax lawyer Jason Pisesky. Jason explains the specialties of a tax lawyer, how they operate with accountants, and how tax lawyers like himself benefit incorporated physicians with their knowledge. Jason will also be part of the roundtable AMA at the May 6 and 7 Toronto conference. 

Dr. Lim actually met Jason Pisesky in a personal capacity before working with him - they met at a dance class. Wing says this is the benefit of meeting professionals and staying in contact, sometimes in the future you realize you need a person with specific expertise and you already have someone to contact. Wing talks about his personal experiences working with Jason and asks Jason to share his insight on taxation law. 

In this episode, Wing Lim and Jason Pisesky examine exactly how lawyers become specialists in taxation law. Jason details how familiarity with tax strategies leads him to new ways of benefiting clients, the differences in liability between accountants and lawyers, the cost analysis of hiring a tax lawyer versus ROI, and what tax laws have changed since 2017 that directly impact professionals like physicians. Jason’s knowledge is profound and very applicable to doctors today. 

About Jason Pisesky

Jason’s practice covers a broad spectrum of taxation law matters including corporate, personal, farm and estate tax planning as well as representation in dispute resolution and litigation matters

Jason joined KPMG in January 2021. Prior to starting at KPMG, he spent over six years working at a leading western Canadian boutique tax law firm. Jason has experience in both the tax dispute and tax planning for both personal and corporate taxpayers.

Jason has worked with small and medium-sized owner managed operations to reorganize structures in a tax efficient manner, acting as counsel for vendors and purchasers in arm’s length deals as well as families in the midst of related party estate and succession planning. He has argued on behalf of taxpayers in many contexts and obtained favourable results for taxpayers from auditors, appeals officers and lawyers at the Department of Justice. Jason has appeared before the Alberta Court of Queen’s Bench.

Resources Discussed in this Episode:

• Save the Date for May 6-7, 2023 in Toronto
• Jason Pisesky on LinkedIn
• KPMG
• TOSI

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Physician Empowerment: website | facebook | linkedin

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Transcript

Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:00:01] Hi, I'm Dr. Kevin Mailo and you're listening to the Physician Empowerment Podcast. At Physician empowerment we're focused on transforming the lives of Canadian physicians through education in finance, practice transformation, wellness and leadership. After you've listened to today's episode, I encourage you to visit us at PhysEmpowerment.ca - that's P H Y S Empowerment dot ca - to learn more about the many resources we have to help you make that change in your own life, practice and personal finances. Now on to today's episode.

Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:00:34] All right. Hi, everyone. I'm Doctor Kevin Mailo, one of the co-founders of Physician Empowerment. And today we've got Dr. Wing Lim, another co-founder, interviewing Jason Pisesky. And Jason is a tax lawyer with KPMG. And the three of us go back a number of years, but today's topic is probably going to be one of our best, one of our most relevant and very unique because this is not something you typically find when you sit down with your accountant, your financial planner, or even your regular lawyer. And what Jason is going to be doing is getting interviewed by Wing as they go through different aspects of tax law and why this applies to incorporated physicians and why everybody should be consulting with tax lawyer as we go through our financial lives. And so with that being said, I think I'm going to step back. I'm going to let you, Wing, go for it and let's get started.

Dr. Wing Lim: [00:01:33] Okay sure. Yeah. Welcome, everyone. And so, yeah, I'm Dr. Wing Lim. I'm one of the co-founders of Physician Empowerment. And so this webinar series slash podcast, because every webinar will be reincarnated as podcast and I'm working on still the proper motto, but we interview interesting people on interesting topics that will impact physicians' lives, will help physicians live better lives. And with that, Kevin, I'm reminded me to put a plug in May 6th and 7th. Make sure you guys register for that. This year it's going to be Dynamo and May 6 and 7, it's going to be jam packed with information. And we're actually going to invite Jason in Sunday, the 7th, as part of the panel discussion. And it's basically roundtable AMA, ask me anything about, well, planning and whatnot. So Jason and I went back a while back. So this is supposed to be a fireside chat, sorry, I couldn't find a fireside background. And Jason, as you can tell, is a really lovely dude and he doesn't have a big ego, unlike most other tax lawyers I've met. And so actually I met Jason probably five years before we talked on a professional basis. So I met Jason on a dance floor of all places. And why would we meet on a dance floor? Because it's one of those life up to 50, what are you going to do when you turn 50? And my wife says, Let's go dance and it took her only four years for me to say yes and dance like Pinocchio.

Dr. Wing Lim: [00:03:07] And my kids corrected me and say, No, Dad, Pinocchio can dance. Okay, I stand corrected. I can't even dance like Pinocchio. And that's where we met at Dance lesson. Right? And so we had a lot of fun in the class. And then a number of years later, Jason, how much of that do you remember? I was kind of stuck in a spot, right? And I was doing major corporate reorg in a few tax strategies. And we hired a tax lawyer. No, sorry. Yes, we hired tax lawyer through a specific accountant who trapped himself as the tax accountant. And then we were just stuck because the building was crazy. What they proposed was ridiculous in terms of price, and they're not very honest with their pricing with the billing practice. And then anyways, I turned over to to Jason and said, Jason, I think you're a tax lawyer, right? And then we went and turned on the file and Jason and his group, there was a top tax firm and they revamped a bunch of things and I got up really, really happy. So that's how we met. Hey, Jason, how much of that do you recall?

Jason Pisesky: [00:04:10] I remember most of it, although, yeah, it's now been I think I've stopped dancing because of COVID in late 2020. Obviously shut down because of COVID and then started doing private lessons just with, you know, 2 or 3 people in the room at a distance. But yeah, now it's been probably two years since I've been dancing, so you need to get back to that. Yeah.

Dr. Wing Lim: [00:04:30] Yeah, it's been a while. Yeah. And then so the topic today is why, when do I need a tax lawyer. Right? So let me maybe prep something for everyone - everyone dialing in or future podcast listeners - we all, most of us are incorporated. And even if you're not, you're still a provider. You will have an accountant, you will have a lawyer. And isn't that enough? Right? Why would we ever need a tax lawyer unless we get audited? I think that's the everyday doctor's first notion of it. And so, and I reached a point because as you know, when you build your businesses and of course I do a lot of entrepreneurial stuff and real estate, so each time you start a venture, you start a company. So before you know it, I've literally have a spider web of so many corporations. I think by the time I brought it to Jason, I have about 8 to 12 companies and every year there's just money flying everywhere and it's just become bonkers, right? And my accountant can't even keep track. And actually one of my ex bookkeeper made a six figure mistake in these loans, and it would have been a disaster. So we said we need to simplify, right? And then we built a strategy to have a family trust. We did major reorg. There was pipeline, there was a few strategies we're doing and then so we just needed somebody to clean it up and have a look in from the tax code, right? So, Jason, when you encounter professionals, business owners, especially doctors included, why do they come to you?

Jason Pisesky: [00:06:04] Yeah, so, and that's a great kind of summary of how people often do come to us is, you know, the structure has just grown to a level of complexity where it's hard to keep track of and it's good to have even just a second set of eyes to look at it, at where you've ended up. So you definitely hit the nail on the head of the easy answer of when the tax lawyer comes in, is when a dispute comes in. That's definitely a subset of tax lawyers. I, small mix of my practice, I do spend more time on the planning side, which is, of course, where I met you, so on the planning side, it's kind of a mix of tax lawyers, we kind of exist in the middle between the accountants and lawyers because tax for both of them is a specialty. I think people kind of inherently know that for lawyers, you know, you have family lawyers, criminal lawyers, real estate lawyers, litigation lawyers. I think sometimes people don't realize that with accountants, not every accountant is a tax accountant. There's auditors, there's evaluators, there's compliance people, there's all different kinds of accounting. And even amongst taxation, there's different kinds. There's indirect taxation - ie GST - international, there's M&A tax, there's domestic, international, US, all these different types of tax too.

Jason Pisesky: [00:07:20] So I think people, first of all, need to kind of appreciate that, that not every accountant knows exactly the same things and what to look out for in every type of file. So, and that's a good thing about tax lawyers is we kind of exist in that middle ground and where a lot of people come to us, and kind of it was your experience of, you know, you may have an accountant who is not a tax specialist who needs that tax expertise and they'll come to a tax lawyer because we're very non-threatening, am not going to take anyone's accounting work. I'm not an accountant. I don't want to do your financial statements and bookkeeping and all that stuff. I want to help with the tax side of things. By the same token, you may also have an accountant who is really strong in tax. There are lots of them and they may be doing something complex and your lawyer may not feel comfortable doing that and assisting with that. Right? They might be a general practitioner or just a corporate lawyer who doesn't do very much in tax. And so they feel that, you know, the transactions are sufficiently tax motivated. You know, you want to make sure you do it right so you don't trip up with Canada Revenue Agency.

Jason Pisesky: [00:08:25] And so they, again, bring in a tax lawyer specialist side to assist on the the lawyer side, the corporate side, to make sure things are done correctly and with the code. And that kind of circles back to the point of - and I'll use the analogy, I think everyone here is probably a doctor everyone's familiar with, you know, the GP, right, for medical practitioners, and in order to speak to a specialist, you have to go to your GP first. You know, if you want to talk to a heart or a brain specialist, you have to get referred to them, at least in our province. That's not the case with tax lawyers, or accountants and lawyers, I should say, generally. And that was your experience, right? You wanted a second opinion. You didn't have to go back to your, you know, your general practitioner and wait 6 to 9 months. You were able to pick up the phone or meet me on the dance floor and say, Jason, I want a second opinion here. Can you give me one? Which is, and there is a sizable amount of work to do, just kind of pick up the phone and say, Hey, I'm not sure things are right or I just want a second set of eyes or, and what also happens when you do have an accountant or a lawyer who's the GP type and there's certainly nothing wrong with it, having a GP for an accountant lawyer is great. The job is to just issue spot and again make those referrals. Sometimes you disagree though, but sometimes GP's can also be on the more conservative side because if they're not super deep into the tax things, they can be put off by maybe advanced strategies and say, Ah, it's too complex. I don't understand where the win is there. Why would we do that? Let's keep it simple. Um, so yeah, being able to just pick up the phone and talk to a specialist if you've heard, you know, a great idea on this, on these webinars or this podcast, you say, you know, Wing's telling me that this is a good idea, I want to explore it, and your accountant kind of maybe has never heard of it before or is afraid to try it. Then again, talk to me directly and then I can kind of speak to your accountant to explain it to them myself or another tax lawyer, of course, can kind of explain it to them and get them onside and make them feel comfortable with it.

Dr. Wing Lim: [00:10:21] Yeah, so let's dwell there a little bit because I've got a few horror stories to share. Um, yeah, so I have some colleagues - I'm in a partnership - and I've deliberately planned for them to retire gracefully, right? I know, I tell people I'm not a tax lawyer, I'm not an accountant, I'm a doctor, but I know enough just to be dangerous. Right? So we structure our company carefully so that when they retire, they can be bought out and take advantage of the lifetime capital gains exemption. And then to do that, you need to purify your company. That's another concept. Sorry, guys, we just throw these things out because they are relevant but we will delve into them later on. So actually, definitely by the end you'll know how valuable Jason is. Jason will be coming back. And actually I'm drumming up something called a tax series that I want to have Jason come in on a podcast level. Right? And I'm thinking like tax hacks for busy physicians, something like that. And we'll dive into a few of these. Yeah, so anyways, and so ten years came and gone and their accountant says oh no you don't need to purify, purification is for people who are dead. So, what? And so a lot of, we find out a lot of accountants are so risk averse, right, and so compared to them like how do you see, it's the same tax code, right? How do you guys see it differently than the average GP accountant?

Jason Pisesky: [00:11:49] Um, I think it just comes with that experience. I mean, I, from practically day one that I kind of stepped out of law school and right into a tax law firm, I was doing kind of the advanced strategies and that is definitely an advantage of the lawyer side where the career of an accountant is much longer to get to doing tax practice. You know, you've got to spend a couple of years just grinding through audits, usually at a big four accounting firm. Then you enter as a specialist, they're called. Then you have to slowly work your way up. Then you have to take the tax specialist program put on by the Tax Foundation. And then you have to switch to your tax group. So to become a tax specialist in accounting sometimes takes ten, 15 years and then they start to work on, oh, I want to roll over some assets, I want to do an estate freeze, I want to, again, these kind of more routine transactions, whereas again, kind of right out of law school while I was still articling, the first thing that kind of appeared on my desk was some of these strategies. And so I think just that familiarity with them and kind of a good understanding of the risk levels just because from day one that's what I've been working with. The familiarity of them I think is probably biggest one. And yeah.

Dr. Wing Lim: [00:13:03] Yeah. So to finish the story, so my partners eventually, one got bought out, one did not, the one got bought out because the passive income was too good, stock market was too good. They ended up with losing this small business deduction and ended up with 53% tax bracket. And accounting just gladly says right a tax and and this guy makes a lot of money, so that year was $530,000 of tax. I would have thrown up. Right? So, and the other guy did not listen. Finally there's a time to be bought out and this guy did not purify the company, so he said no. And then the chance is gone. Now the company has no money to buy him out. And then I met another lady - so I think I send that person to to Jason - so the husband died, right? And unfortunate, so this is a fresh widow. And the husband got bought out by the company. And except the money was given to the kids and my friend was given a tax bill. And so because, again, did not do it right, did not purify, did not do the lifetime capital gains exemption. So this poor widow, fresh widow, apart from morning and running the funeral, was told by her accountant, say, did your husband invest in something? There's a T5 for $400,000 and now you have a tax bill of $200,000 due in two months. It's just such a horror story. Right? And so she didn't see the money, but she has to cough up 200 grand. And if she's not liquid enough, then she would have been in trouble, right? You know. So do you see horror stories like these, Jason? You must have seen some of these.

Jason Pisesky: [00:14:55] Absolutely. And I mean, the hope is always that you can turn the horror story around because not a small portion of the practice comes from people who, oh, I've built this business over the last 20 years, I'm ready to retire, I just got this offer in the mail, help me structure this for sale. And it's well, again, often we can help, but it is usually more complex and expensive when you're doing it on the precipice of retirement, when again, you have to do these purifications, take all these extra steps, where again, but I'm sure, again, speaking to, you know, medical analogy, the preventative care doing it all along usually leads to a much better end result at the end of the day, the last stages of the business as well. Making sure that you, you know, if you're generating tons of surplus money, you have a place for that to go that you don't have to purify as much, making sure you have the right types of shares and the right types of places to get the most efficient tax treatment at time of sale.

Dr. Wing Lim: [00:15:52] Right. So I think most of, I'm talking about personal experience, most of my tax advisers are very conservative. Right? This side, you never get audited, this is the side that you may get audited. And so they say, remember the first accountant, you'll never be audited with me. But of course, I pay taxes through my nose. And ten years later, I went to seminars, webinars, whatever, and I say his name was John Whatever, John, can we do this now? He said, yes. Could have done it last year. Yeah, could have done it ten years ago. Yeah. Right? Wow. Like the tax implication was huge. Right? And so as our financial IQ goes up, these advanced tax strategies show up. And then you find that, oh, people who are high up in the high net worth sphere, some of them do it every single year. You know, but then the accountants don't want to touch it. And then so my first tax lawyer met, he says, I stamped approved my advice and I go to court on your behalf. Right. And he told me that the difference is the penalty. The accountant versus the lawyer. So do you want to expound on that a little bit, Jason? Like, how much are they liable?

Jason Pisesky: [00:17:05] Sure. Yeah. So at least in Alberta, and I think several other provinces, accountants have the ability to limit their liability as low as the fees paid. So they come up with a complex tax strategy that's going to save you $1 million, but something goes wrong. Whose fault it is? Who knows? The fees may be limited to, sorry the liability may be limited to just the fees paid. So you're fighting with the CRA. You owe them a million bucks, but you only pay the accountant the $50,000. That's what you can get back. Off you go. Lawyers generally do not have the ability to limit their liability. So, and that's an important point. Lawyer's fees are often higher than accounting fees, but that comes with kind of you're paying almost for insurance at that point too, where if something goes wrong, you have the ability to, you know, the lawyer is liable for that amount. And generally the the lawyer's kind of liability funds are, take that into mind, too, that lawyers have higher liability as well. So that's definitely a relevant consideration when you're choosing between a tax accountant and a tax lawyer. Yeah.

Dr. Wing Lim: [00:18:17] Right, Right. Yes. Now, talking about cost, I often have people say, well, I don't want to pay the money to see a tax lawyer. And last month our webinar is with Goran, and some of you were there, and he's a tax strategist and he's not a lawyer. And so Goran and Jason, they do work together and he threw a lot of these things out. Right? And people said, well, how do we do that? And then somebody is typing in the chat and say, sounded expensive. Right. So then, so okay, let's address the elephant. Doctors are cheap. Doctors go to seminars, learn to DIY yourself to financial independence and the wealthy land right? You know. Hello. Hello. Hello. You never went to school. How do you think you can DIY? Right? But doctors are cheap, right? They want to fire all their advisors and buy some index funds and then buy some crypto on the fly and be rich. So what are kind of the costs? You know, we have a national audience, right? Nationwide. How much a tax lawyer is worth? Like, do they charge by the hour? Do they charge by the case?

Jason Pisesky: [00:19:26] It depends. Usually by the hour. Although if you're kind of doing something kind of more routine planning, I am comfortable block quoting and saying this is what that particular strategy for you, based on all your circumstances, should cost and sticking to it. I do that quite a bit because I find clients do like that. You know, we can all quote in ranges and say what your hourly rate is, but then, you know, what does that really mean? Of course you give a range and the client sees the low end of the range and the professional sees the high end of the range. So I do find it to the extent possible, it is always great to give a fixed quote because everyone knows what it is. And oftentimes for when I can give a fixed quote, it's for a strategy where the the benefits are easily calculated. So I can say, you know this planning strategy, whether it's on a sale, whether it's a kind of annual planning, it's going to result in tax savings of X, it's going to cost you Y, X is bigger than Y, why would we not do this? On hourly rates, but so that's where, again, it's, you know, relatively predictable what's going to be involved. You know, assuming people have clean minute books and no skeletons in the closet, once you start moving into more bespoke unique things, hourly rates are definitely relevant. It's hard to to tell you exactly, I mean fresh out of school I'm sure there's tax lawyers somewhere in this country where their rates are, you know, $200 an hour. I know there's some in Toronto their rates are over $2000 an hour. So it does depend on seniority, what region you're in. Good thing about tax practice, though, is it's national. So you do have the opportunity to pick your professional, generally speaking, across the country because our tax code is a national code and I can work on someone who has an issue in Ontario with the national tax code as well as someone in Alberta. So yeah.

Dr. Wing Lim: [00:21:15] Yeah. So there's a wide range of course there, hundreds of dollars per hour. Right? And then people say, well, you know, do you get the money worth? So I can say from my personal experience, yeah, we did a strategy where Colombo, I think my fee was about 30, 35, and we saved about $375,000. So the net savings was about $300,000 north of it. So and I talked to my colleagues, just I tell people I put the money where my mouth is, where everything I share, I've done it, right? And so people chase the returns, chase stock, the stock is hot, right? Go up, crypto hot or this real estate is really good, flip it. Make the money. Well, are you ever going to make that kind of return? 10 times. 100 times, right? Like, but if you don't, well, first of all, when you put it like that, it's a no brainer, right? You spend 30 K and save 300. But most people don't even understand that, right? They're just chasing the DIY index fund.

Jason Pisesky: [00:22:16] Absolutely. And that's usually the conversation I do have with people. And it's always good to have it at the outset, right? I mean, if I went to you and said, hey, pay me 20,000 and I'll give you 200,000, you know, if that's, and that can usually be fairly easily quantified close to the beginning, maybe not precisely if you're talking something more complex like a sale or something, maybe it's you know, it's going to depend on some of the attributes of the companies. But you can often get pretty close to, you know, what the advantages are to a plan. And again, they're not always pure tax savings. Sometimes they're tax deferral, which is more confusing, where you've saved immediate tax, but the tax has been kicked down the road and it'll have to be paid later. But that does have advantage if you've deferred tax in a company and you can invest it, you know, a higher starting nest egg. Yeah, so the ability to kind of talk about those advantages, that's definitely great for a tax practice generally. I know I sometimes feel for my family and criminal law colleagues who, it's much more uncertain what someone is willing to, I don't want to go to jail, I'll pay any amount not to go to jail, until you get $100,000 bill. And it's like, well, how long was it in jail, really? Like, you know, I want my kids, you know, 100% access to my kids. Right? And again, until you get the massive bill from your lawyer and maybe you just ended up at 50% anyways, but you got your lawyer to fight for that. So I do like tax practice generally because you can, it is math of here's my fees, here's the savings. Yeah. And so I think clients generally appreciate again that and I think you probably know those numbers because you know how I draft my reporting to you. I set them out. I'm like, here's itemized exactly what we did and the results you got from it. Yeah.

Dr. Wing Lim: [00:23:55] Right. And then I kept sharing with my colleagues as we lived through especially the last few years, CRA has been changing dramatically how they deal with business owners, professionals, especially medical PCs. Right? So, and every time I heard about something, I have to pick up the phone and talk to somebody smart like Jason or my other tax consultants. Right? So what have you seen since 2017? What big changes are there and how does that eat us up as professionals? Those new tax laws.

Jason Pisesky: [00:24:29] I mean, the big one is the the TOSI, the tax on split income, which I don't know if you've talked about it on past ones, basic rules kind of being before the TOSI rules, I'll call them, people used to have spouses and children being shareholders of their active PCs and they would pay dividends to them. It's great if you had a non-working spouse, you could take advantage of their lower brackets. Same if you had kids going to university or, you know, buying their first home or a first car, you can kind of put the money right into their hands, use their brackets as opposed to taking it all at your high brackets. So those rules came out in 2017 and they were definitely a wrench. And they changed the tax landscape. There have been some other changes. I think it was, gosh, now I can't remember it was before or after that, they also changed the - I think it was after - the ability to practice in a partnership and have kind of the ability to have everybody get their small business deduction, the 500,000. Yeah, that was a big, that was a big one. It used to be able to have, and I knew of them, you'd have practices of, you know, 50 to 100 doctors in a clinic. And despite the size and the revenue, everybody was able to get their small business deduction. That's not the case anymore. They've closed that with a very, very complicated series of rules. And then, so now it's kind of like everyone shares one crack at it, the one $500,000 limit, as opposed to everybody having their own $500,000 limit. So the general... and I don't, I think it's unfair, although maybe I'm biased, Parliament does definitely have a take that professionals generally, be they accountants, lawyers, doctors, you know, that they're not business owners, which I strongly disagree with. I don't know what that means. You know, we go out, we get clients, we drum up business, we start clinics, put up signs, all these things, and take significant risks. But they seem to like to treat, or seem to be trending towards the direction of, you know, they should be treated like employees. It's not fair for them to have PCs. And so think that I haven't seen anything softening that tone of, you know, professionals need to be treated differently than a business, you know, producing widgets or whatever the classic university example is of your textbook business, and economics is my undergrad, it was always the widget factory they used.

Jason Pisesky: [00:26:56] But I think a lot of times I'm sure a lot of people on this webinar and a lot of people listen to this podcasts spend a lot of sleepless nights at times thinking about, you know, if their business has been going through a rough patch or how they're going to grow or what the next year looks like, and how they're going to retire because they don't have a pension plan like like someone who's, so yeah. And we see technicals come out where there's a technical recently where CRA made some off the cuff comments about a medical professional that was working for a hospital, that kind of a bit of a uproar there about, again, were they really in business if they were just working directly for the hospital as a director? And so kind of a lot of off the cuff comments and material tax changes as well, that they don't necessarily... I mean, the rules that talked about TOSI, and changing those rules around the $500,000 limit so people couldn't get multiple, those don't just go after doctors, but they definitely impact doctors materially.

Dr. Wing Lim: [00:27:54] Right. Now so we need to wrap the formal part up and then we'll open up to Q&A. But I think, I've been around three decades and I've seen a lot of changes, and definitely it's eaten up autonomy from professional level and also from the taxation point of view. Right.? Our take home pay has been less and less, not just from our respective colleges and provincial payment mechanism, but also from the taxation point of view. It's less and less friendly, right? And if you don't understand it, if your tax accountant is having this, your accountant is having same lesson plan as 20 years ago, it's like Mrs. Jones teaches English for the last 20 years, the same Macbeth, same same playbook. Right? So it's changing, right? And I definitely see way too many of my colleagues still using the same outdated tax strategy. And then so, a lot of these off - what we call it - the off cuff discussion, right? And people like you, Jason, read those all the time. That's your pastime. Right? And then you can tell us, well, hey, is this a smart one or not so smart one, right. For example, one is just did one prescribed rate loan for my daughter. And who just getting her first condo and based out of college and I'm exactly the guy sitting next to me his daughter in the same boat said, have you heard of this? He said, No, I haven't. So if you plug in with smart people, you get smart advice and that could change dramatically, dramatically your cash flow, your long term tax planning, even estate planning. Last mastermind we had was, masterclass, was beginning with the end in mind, right? With estate planning all that, it could be huge difference to your offspring. Right? So anyways, I just want to wrap it up and say we need - our goal here at Physician Empowerment is not to sell you guys anything but to share our ideas and to disrupt you so that you can think, and to equip you so that you can ask smarter questions next time you meet with your accountant or with your tax consultants. Right? So I want to thank Jason and we'll have Jason back again May the 7th. Virtually, him and other panelists will talk and we'll open for Q&A at the end of our whole weekend. Okay, so and Jason, yeah, as I said, and Kevin introduced, he works for KPMG. It's a national firm. It's one of the biggest firms in accounting. And he is in the law division. And I heard that you're doing your West Coast division, right? Right now.

Jason Pisesky: [00:30:28] Yes, I'm working towards starting up kind of western Canada arm, to the extent it does exist in Calgary and Vancouver, but we're seeing kind of a bit of an expansion and stuff. So looking into that.

Dr. Wing Lim: [00:30:39] Yeah well so congrats and hope everything turns out good. So I definitely thoroughly enjoy our friendship and every time I get smart advice from Jason.

Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:30:53] Thank you so much for listening to the Physician Empowerment Podcast. If you're ready to take those next steps in transforming your practice, finances or personal well-being, then come and join us at PhysEmpowerment.ca - P H Y S Empowerment dot ca - to learn more about how we can help. If today's episode resonated with you, I'd really appreciate it if you would share our podcast with a colleague or friend and head over to Apple Podcasts to give us a five star rating and review. If you've got feedback, questions or suggestions for future episode topics, we'd love to hear from you. If you want to join us and be interviewed and share some of your story, we'd absolutely love that as well. Please send me an email at [email protected]. Thank you again for listening. Bye.