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Episode 12 - Real Estate for Incorporated Physicians with Dr. Kevin Mailo

Jan 30, 2023

 Episode Notes

Dr. Wing Lim, co-founder of Physician Empowerment, turns the tables and interviews Dr. Kevin Mailo for a change. Kevin talks about real estate investment for physicians and shares insights and advice from his own personal real estate journey.


With a family history of investing or buying in real estate, Kevin acknowledges that he came to real estate naturally. He sees real estate as a very powerful wealth creation tools and he names three main reasons for that: appreciation, positive cash flow generation, and mortgage paydown. Kevin gets into detail with Wing about how each of those three work. 


In this episode, Dr. Wing Lim and Dr. Kevin Mailo discuss how an incorporated physician can start in real estate investing, why Kevin feels real estate gives him more peace of mind than stocks or other portfolios, how to start if someone is not incorporated, and why eventually it’s advisable to bring experts in to help with property management. They shed light on real estate as a powerful tool for physicians to use to their benefit.


About Dr. Wing Lim

Apart from his clinical & teaching roles, Wing has extensive experience in Practice Management and Business Development. 

He is passionate about sharing his extensive knowledge & experience (both clinical & business) with others in various settings, from his clinic mentoring younger colleagues, to churches, senior groups, ethnic functions, radio broadcasts, retreats, seminars, and national conferences.

About Dr. Kevin Mailo
Kevin is an emergency physician based out of Edmonton, Alberta. He is known for his highly engaging teaching style that breaks down complex topics into memorable experiences. 

Kevin cares deeply about the long-term wellness of the medical profession and wants to see physicians and their families succeed personally and financially.

Resources Discussed in this Episode:

Physician Empowerment: website | facebook | linkedin





Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Dr. Kevin Mailo and you are listening to the Physician Empowerment Podcast. At Physician Empowerment, we're focused on transforming the lives of Canadian physicians through education in finance, practice transformation, wellness and leadership. After you've listened to today's episode, I encourage you to visit us at - that's P H Y S - to learn more about the many resources we have to help you make that change in your own life, practice and personal finances. Now on to today's episode.


Dr. Wing Lim: [00:00:34] Well, welcome everyone. So good to have a few people show up on Wednesday evening. Alberta time 6, I guess it's 8 p.m. in Ontario. And so yeah, so I'm really delighted to have this webinar and so we hold this on a regular basis once a month. And so we're going to talk about real estate for incorporated physicians. All right. So this is not for the faint of heart, I guess, and I'm very delighted to welcome everyone and actually I'll be turned the table around. Usually I got interviewed by Kevin, but I'm going to interview Kevin. So I'm Wing. I'm Wing Lim, one of the co-founders of Physician Empowerment. And so I'm turning the table around to interview Kevin about this, this interesting topic. So of course, people have different backgrounds and people invest in different things, and there's a wide spectrum across all of four asset classes. And so let's start off by saying that why real estate, right? There are people who do nothing but index funds and people do nothing but mutual funds, some do stocks, bonds, some do exclusively crypto, bless their heart right now. And then there are also people, even within real estate, they flip and there are a lot of things they do. So let's just have a bird's eye view over why real estate compared to other asset classes. So, Kevin, what's your take?


Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:02:03] Yeah, let me talk a little bit about my my story about real estate and why it came to me and fairly naturally. But I come from a family where, for a few generations, has always been somebody on either my mom's side or my dad's side who has invested and bought in real estate. And I saw a lot of wealth created in real estate. So real estate started with me at a very early age. I kind of got into it by accident. Initially, having bought our first property as our personal residence years ago in medical school, and eventually didn't get rid of the place but rented it out. And so that was years and years ago that I started. And since then it's been a really, really great journey. But real estate, it's a very powerful, very, very powerful wealth creation tool for a number of reasons. The classic three are the following benefits of real estate. Number one is appreciation. So if you look historically across all different types of real estate in buoyant markets in North America, right? So I'm not going to talk about other parts of the world that are depopulating or aging or, you know, stagnant economies like the Rust Belt in United States or things like that, where real estate can be stagnant or drop. What I'm really referring to is a buoyant market and it doesn't have to be red hot like the GTA or the Lower Mainland in Vancouver. But real estate appreciates. That's the first pillar of why I love real estate and why I invest in it. Number two is real estate, if done properly, generates positive cash flow. So if you were in a buy and hold model where - and it depends on the ownership structure and we'll get into this in a little bit - but if you're in a buy and hold model and there is a tenant, whether it's a commercial tenant, whether you own your own clinic, whether you have residential tenants, ideally you're generating positive cash flow every month, which is income that comes into either your your own pocket personally or corporately. And then lastly, this is the most powerful of the three, is mortgage paydown, right? So when you acquire that property in year one and this is a very simple example, when you acquire that property in year one, you're using a down payment of 20% or less, typically on residential real estate. And then you flash forward to year 26 when the when the property is paid off and the mortgage is cleared. That property has appreciated in value three times, maybe four times what you paid for, but what you didn't you didn't pay with all of your own money. You used a loan from the bank, use the mortgage to acquire 80% of that property in year one.


Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:04:52] So somebody else, the whole 25 years that you held the property, paid that mortgage, and that is your tenant, whether it's a commercial tenant or practice colleagues or a residential tenant. And this is incredibly powerful and we've got our conference coming up, so for anybody that's listening to this or joining us on the webinar tonight, our conference is coming up May 6th and 7th in Toronto. We do it every year. It's an outstanding event where we talk about wealth creation for Canadian physicians, and we're going to be focusing on real estate this year because we keep getting more and more interest. But we're going to break this down in a lot more detail in May, but just put that in the back of your head that the wealth creation through real estate very passively is this mortgage pay down and appreciation. And it's stunning what the annualized returns are on that on very, very basic entry level real estate investing. Right? Like you don't need to be out there as some aggressive high level investor who's buying up, you know, shiny office towers. You can make a lot of money in real estate in lower class properties for sure. So Wing, do you want to take us to the next question, then? Sorry, you can tell I just keep going and going because I love it.


Dr. Wing Lim: [00:06:04] Yeah, you're right. Yeah. So, there are advantages of the real estate. So while there are advantage of others, how does that compare to stocks, bonds, all those others?


Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:06:17] Yeah. I mean, you know, we teach at our events, we talk about investing in the markets. And for those of you that have listened to our speaker, Dimitri, he's phenomenal, right? Dimitri has been very active in the stock markets, very active in crypto. And I always say there are many, many ways to make to create wealth as a position. We have many advantages and many opportunities. It's really about finding what works for us. One of the things I love about real estate is, number one, to allude to my point earlier, is you get access to credit for it, right? So you can't walk into the bank and say, Listen, I'm really good at buying stocks and bonds. I'm really good at investing in crypto. Give me a mortgage for $1,000,000 and watch me grow it at 15% annualized return. The banks are just going to laugh you out the door, right? They don't do that. But if you say I found a property, I want to acquire it, I need a mortgage, the bank goes Sure, right? Because the banks inherently recognize the stability and the long term growth that real estate offers. They do not offer the same for the markets, and I think we're in a great year to prove that point. And not that you can't make money in a down market, there are going to be many people that make a lot of money in a down stock market, but it's tricky. Real estate for me at least, I love because it's relatively simple. You put your money in as that down payment. You put a tenant in and over the course of years that mortgage is rapidly paid down. The property accrues in value and you get cash flow.


Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:07:50] And what I'm really getting at is peace of mind. One of the central things we teach at Physician Empowerment is that when it comes to investing, your investment portfolio, your strategy should reflect your life. So we have stressful jobs, we work long hours. So I really don't want to be up at night wondering what the markets are doing, wondering what crypto is doing. I wonder if my Tesla stock is sinking, not that I own no Tesla stock, not one bit of it. But just to give you a sense of like what's going on in the markets and appreciating that that can take a mental toll, whereas real estate, there's a lot more stability there, right? Like, you know it's trending upward. You know that every month, even in a down market, those mortgages are getting paid down. And so it offers a lot of peace of mind. And again, at the conference, I'll show you the math on this, where you can sit down and say, well, if I invest X amount in real estate and if it grows at a certain very conservative rate, then I'm going to be worth millions of dollars in 20 years time. And it's as simple as that, right? So it really brings a lot of peace of mind. So that's personally why I love real estate is and it's a very tangible asset, right? It's not an electronic signal on the internet like crypto. You can drive, I can go look at the properties I've invested in or the properties I own directly. So I hope that kind of answers the questions. I mean, there's a lot here, Wing.


Dr. Wing Lim: [00:09:15] Yeah, so maybe let's go one step further, right? Because the topic is for INC positions. So does it matter whether we INC, let's talk about INC and let's talk about those that are not INC.


Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:09:30] Yeah. So yeah, real estate as an INC position there are a few advantages and one of the big ones is you can retain earnings within your professional corporation. You pay corporate tax on that right, like we all do. But then you have that extra $100,000, let's say sitting in your professional corporation, you can then transfer to a holding corporation and invest in real estate. And whether that's direct ownership or a limited partnership or syndicated deal or something like along those lines is it's a very flexible, relatively easy thing to do. Setting up a holding corporation is very straightforward. Your accountant and any average kind of lawyer can easily set one up and then it can be funded with shareholder loans from your professional corporation. So in that regards, there's a huge tax advantage, at least to start out with when you're acquiring real estate because you're not forced to take the money out of the corporation. Because in Ontario, as an example, the top marginal tax rate I believe is 53.53%. So if you had that extra $100,000 retained in your corporation and you wanted to take it out and buy a rental property, let's say, well, you're going to be paying that, most of that is probably going to be in the top marginal tax bracket, which is going to leave you with only 43,000. 47,000, pardon me, I'm very bad at math, especially public math, 47,000 ish to invest. Right? Whereas if you held that corporately, you'd be probably sitting closer to 90,000. So that's a big spread. So you can see, like if you're trying to build that portfolio, it can grow quite rapidly using retained corporate earnings. And again, we're going to be diving into this a lot more at our conference.


Dr. Wing Lim: [00:11:13] Yeah, exactly. So, yes. So I like the big gurus, like the Robert Kiyosaki of the world saying that I love real estate because I borrow the money for free. Everything I leverage. And he brags about owing $1,000,000,000 in debt, leveraging, getting higher on other people's money.


Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:11:33] I put some caution there. I put some caution there because there are risks to that, to overleveraging in real estate. And, you know, the truth is and again, we can show you this at June just as a side dig, but in some cases, you can actually create an infinite return for yourself on real estate by using totally other people's money. I again, I caution because there is there is some risk associated with that and we can explain what that looks like. Can I step back and just talk about personal real estate personally, because I own a little bit personally and that was also an interesting journey. So, you know, converting one of my personal homes that I previously lived in into a rental property because I couldn't sell it in a down market with rising interest rates. So I kept it. And that was kind of an interesting journey and it works out all right in terms of the same things apply. You have annual appreciation, you have mortgage paydown. But the issue is, is that whatever cash flow you're making, whatever profit you're making on that place, you're paying top marginal income tax rates. So that's one of the, that's one of the big ones that I struggle with, is that whatever money you're going to make off of your personal holdings, you're paying, you're probably going to be paying at the top marginal income tax rate. So that's a bit of a struggle. And then the other downside is, is whatever you own personally is because it's not your personal residence, you don't get the capital gains exemption. So if you go to sell the property and let's say a gain 500,000 in value over the 20 years that you owned it, you're going to pay capital gains on that. So again, it's sort of, it's not that great. And then there are some questions as to whether you're exposed to more liability. But this is all direct ownership of real estate when you probably want to get to other types of real estate investing.


Dr. Wing Lim: [00:13:30] Yeah, but maybe we just pause. So what about those who are not incorporated? They don't have a PC. What do they do? Should they give up?


Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:13:40] No, no, no. There are many ways to invest. I mean, you can run it as a proprietorship. Absolutely. Again, I would recommend very robust insurance on that and definitely sit down and talk with your accountant and talk to your lawyer before doing anything in real estate in general, but especially, you know, as operating as a proprietorship. But you can still invest in real estate deals, you know, as an individual. So most physicians are what we call an accredited investor, which allows them to step into private equity deals in real estate that the average person can't access. And you want to just explain what an accredited investor is for a minute, Wing?


Dr. Wing Lim: [00:14:16] Sure. Accredited Investor, well, there's a very technical definition, but basically, from what I can gather as a layman, is you need to own $1,000,000 worth of free property, have $5 million of cash, sorry $1 million cash, $5 million of of properties, in everything you hold liquid and illiquid, but also for most people is $200,000 a year of income for the last two years. Well, $300,000 a year of income counnting the spouse. So most physicians qualify.


Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:14:48] Yeah. Yeah. So again, there are ways to invest personally as well, even if you are not incorporated. But again, sorry continue Wing.


Dr. Wing Lim: [00:14:59] So we step into it already, so we're ahead of ourselves. So yeah. So then what are the different ways to own real estate?


Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:15:06] Yeah. Yeah. So let me talk about my journey a little bit and why I'm changing growing maturity as as a real estate investor. And for anybody that follows Yatin Chadha's podcast, I was on there talking about my own real estate adventures and lumbar puncture night, which was pretty memorable. People still mention that when I bump into them and I won't go through that war story again. But the bottom line is I started out investing real estate, buying doors. Right? And that's sort of the the colloquial term we use for acquiring small single family dwellings, whether it's an individual condo unit or apartment unit or an individual home or a duplex or fourplex. But what I'm getting at is something small scale that I own myself as an incorporated position, and then go and effectively manage it myself. And even with a property manager, it ends up being work. It's always work, right? And I think this is one of the things that turns people off of real estate, right? And so I bought enough doors that I got to a point where I had quite a few doors, if I can be honest with you, that was keeping me really busy, you know, in terms of phone calls about some small issue, big issues, vacancies, paperwork, bookkeeping, accounting, there was a lot there that added up. And, you know, I've got property management on most of my doors and it's excellent. But in the end, somebody's still going to phone you about things, even if it's not you in the middle of the night dealing with that broken toilet, which after a while when you realize, like if I keep going down this journey and keep just buying more doors, I'm just going to get busier and busier until I bought myself another job, right? And I'm busy enough with emergency medicine and raising my kids that I really don't want to take away from my personal time. And to go back to echo that point earlier, this is about building a better life, right? Whatever we invest in, whether it's the markets, crypto - crypto, right, this is not the year - you know, whatever it is, it should be buying us peace of mind, right? So there comes this kind of tipping point, and every physician's different, I mean, some people, you know, I'm sure there are physicians out there with like 50 doors and love it. Right? I'm nowhere close to that and already feel busy enough with what I've got, you know, realizing that as somebody who is initially very hands on, like, you know, I go paint walls with my kids because I want to teach them a little bit about the business. You know, I can swap out appliances like nobody's business. You know, maybe it's all that practice on central lines and airway equipment. It just gives me handy skills, you know, swapping out appliances. I don't mind it, but I realize that as time consuming as I get busier, I'm going to struggle with this. And even if you have to find a contractor for a lot of this, it becomes difficult. So now this year for the first time is I finally stepped into private equity, right? I realized that I didn't want to keep scaling up, getting more and more doors, more and more mortgages and more and more phone calls. Even if I am making money and loving that part of it, there comes this kind of tipping point where, as a busy physician, I say to myself, you know, how much of my time, even personal time can I deploy here? And so that's where I stepped into private equity. And that's where I really think most physicians are going to be happiest, right? Because I come from a background where I grew up enough around this stuff to understand it. I'm pretty handy. But at some point, if you're busy, you may just be, as a physician, you may be much more interested in private equity. And so physicians make a lot of money in this space when it's done properly. And what private equity is, is you're not on the hook for mortgages or personal guarantees in many cases, what you're really doing is you're lending money into a project where somebody else carries the credit risk and somebody else is in charge of developing the property and managing the property. And I did that for the first time this year, and I'm very excited and very happy about that, that new phase in my real estate journey as I mature from being kind of the hustler that's doing it all myself to now stepping away and investing at a higher level with people who are professionals in this space, right? People who are experts, because that's what we do in practice, right? When we're in over our head, it's time to consult. The same sort of thing goes in our financial journey, whether that's finding an excellent portfolio manager, whether that's finding a great accountant, whether that's finding a great tax lawyer or somebody to help us with insurance or again, property management or deals, at some point we have to let go. And that's one of the things I struggled with as a physician was that instinct, that impulse to micromanage. But as you can step away from that, you could make a lot of money and be happier and enjoy more peace of mind, which I think that's the the triple win there. So keep going.


Dr. Wing Lim: [00:19:53] So. Yeah. So there are different things you talk about: actively managing, change your own toilet all the way to private equity, you're totally hands off. So for those of us who are brand new at this, how does a busy physician start?


Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:20:10] Yeah, I mean, this is always the thing. And so we talked about this earlier in this month's small group. So we lead a master class and Wing actually took us through a great one called Navigating the Asset Jungle. And one of the key pieces of wisdom that I'm going to say before you even get started is actually start. Right? I encounter physicians all the time who talk year after year about investing in real estate and never pull the trigger. Some of whom I followed for years. I have physicians that say, I'm going to get into the market, right, whether it's the public markets, stocks and bonds year after year, and you find out that they have six, even seven figures worth of cash stacked in their professional corporation because they are too scared to finally step out and put it someplace. And knowing that your cash is dropping. In our current inflationary environment by 10% a year. So if you have $800,000 in cash stacked up in your professional corp and you're too scared to invest it in real estate or the markets or whatever, you just lost 80,000 this year in purchasing power. Right? So the first piece of wisdom in this space is having the courage to actually do it, right?


Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:21:24] So saying to yourself, I'm never going to know everything, but at some point I have to step out there and do that. And you know what? That's not that different than our clinical careers, right? I mean, I remember my first few weeks in practice being like, Oh my goodness, there is a lot here, but it's on me because I'm now an independent physician. And we have to carry that same mindset of being able to step out knowing that we don't have all of the answers, knowing that there's always going to be some risk. So the first piece of wisdom is do something, number one. The next piece is realize that you cannot fully eliminate risk, and that goes across any asset, be it crypto, the markets, real estate, whatever you want to buy, there is no zero risk here. So be willing to accept some risk in real estate. Create that wealth mindset which is optimistic, informed ability to manage risk. Right? We're not talking about blind gambling and we're not talking about blind trust of the professionals you're working with. We're talking about understanding risk and being able to accept and put a little bit of money on the line. The next big one--


Dr. Wing Lim: [00:22:28]  [00:22:28]-- Sorry, let me interject to plug in. So the masterclass that we're doing next month, December, we're going to do the risk jungle, navigating risk jungle.  [00:22:39]


Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:22:39]  [00:22:39]Good, good, good, good. That one took me years to learn, and I'm still learning it for anybody that's on this webinar. Drop us a line. Email us because we would love to have you join us just to drop in and see what a single, what a single webinar or masterclass with Wing looks like because they're outstanding. But yeah, we're going to talk about risk. [00:23:00] So let me move to the next thing here in what I recommend as first steps, and this is start reading, start learning about real estate so that you understand how it works, so you understand the terminology and you can begin to talk the language a little bit. And again, you don't have to be the expert here. You don't have to be the most knowledgeable person in the room. But just having some awareness goes a long way. The other thing that I anchored to, through the good times and the bad with real estate, is those three truths - cash flow, why would we call them 3 truths, 3 powers of real estate - cash flow, appreciation and mortgage paydown. The reason why is because there are ups and downs in real estate. I've been through Alberta's real estate market with some downs over the years and you have to just open up those numbers and go, Well, I'm not gaining through appreciation this year, but I'm still making cash flow and my mortgages are still getting paid down, right? Because when you get to those core realizations about real estate, it allows you to hold the road, right? You know, when people with the stock market plummeting like it is, we'll say Historically the stock market goes up, I'll ride out this rough patch, even though it's an eye watering loss in a given year, which is why I have very little in the public markets. And I have no answer for crypto. None whatsoever. Don't. How about that? Sorry to be so blunt. Yeah, crypto keeps coming up, but it's just, this is the month that went under. So anyhow, just going on about educating yourself in risk, educating yourself in the basic terminology of real estate, and having a commitment to say, Okay, I'm not going to freak out here, I am going to put some money into a project and you can start small, right? You don't have, do not go throw a million bucks into a deal. Right? As your first deal. Like, don't do that. There's no rush. There's always new real estate deals coming up, always new opportunities coming up. So go cautiously, go slowly, and get comfortable with what you're doing. And then once you see those returns coming in, you can start saying, Okay, now I get it. I'm okay with this. And you can gradually put more and more in and that's how I did it. And 15 years on, I couldn't be happier.


Dr. Wing Lim: [00:25:16] Right. Cool. So maybe Kevin can share with us some pitfalls and lessons learned that you wish knew earlier.


Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:25:25] Absolutely. Yeah. So, number one, I wish I hadn't worried so much. I spent so many years investing in real estate over the years, and I worried. It's kind of like raising kids. You know, you sit there and you worry about them day to day, and then you look back and you're like, What did I worry about? They're actually all right. And so number one is, I wish I hadn't worried so much over the last ten years when I've really been much more active in real estate. I wish I had scaled up sooner and gone into private equity sooner. I spent far too many years in my life managing my own doors and chasing smaller returns because I wanted to be able to micromanage it. And I wish I had stepped into private equity five years ago and gotten involved in bigger projects. The other big one is don't overleverage, really don't overleverage. The banks are going to give you a lot of money if you go out and ask for it. But that doesn't mean you take all of it because you're on the hook for that. And in the end, like real estate is, like, you make a lot of money leveraging. I'm not saying not to, but I'm just saying to be mindful that in the end you've signed personal guarantees on all of those mortgages. And so don't overdo it. Go cautiously. Go slowly. And build within your risk tolerance. Right? But don't be scared. Like I got, there are physicians out there that have $2 million worth of personal mortgage and it's on them to show up every month with a with a mortgage payment. Whereas if you had $2 million in rental properties, somebody else is coming up with those mortgage payments every month. And whatever you have to subsidize, if it's a slow patch or a slow month, it's a tax write off, right? So it's a huge, huge advantage to being in debt corporately with rental properties versus personally. And so I would say compare those two. What does $1,000,000 in mortgage, personal mortgage debt look like versus $1,000,000 in rental property debt, and realize that personal mortgage debt is far riskier than rental property debt. And then the other big one that I would encourage people to do is not get too caught up in faddish returns or all the glitz and glamor because there's a lot out there. Right? As an accredited investor, you're going to have a lot of people potentially approaching you, looking to invest with you, but you have to be mindful who you invest with and when you can speak to that because you've had more experience in private equity as a real estate developer. Right? But there's a lot of caution, right? The people in the finance and real estate industries do not hold the same fiduciary responsibilities that we hold towards our patients. So don't go into it with rose colored glasses. Be very aware of who you're working with and who you're investing alongside. I would say it is very important if you're looking at going into private equity.


Dr. Wing Lim: [00:28:19] Right on. So those are really good pieces of gem that you offer, Kevin. So while we're going to wrap up, so we intentionally don't want to make this a long, drawn out thing, because if you want to do more technicality, come join our master class. We'll do the deep dive. We're doing a whole year's worth of, well building strategies and real estate, and June would be a big, big event in Toronto face to face. And we're going to have a lot of fun and we're going to plan for some some nice trips down the road. This is a further down the road project.


Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:28:50] Yeah, Yeah, exactly. Lots of great, lots of great opportunities to come together. But yeah, we're going to be talking about this in a lot more depth in May in Toronto at our national conference. So again, that's May 6th and 7th. We're going to be covering this. We are just in the process of moving to new email. So this is my personal email that I just send out to our webinar participants. But reach me personally if you have questions or you want to learn more because this is, there are a lot of great opportunities in real estate, and in my opinion, every physician should be invested in real estate, not all of it, right? Like you can be diversified if you want, but I'd say every physician should be looking at real estate because there are just so many advantages as an incorporated professional to invest in this space and so much return to be had and peace of mind. Like I said, real estate's been such a positive thing in my life.


Dr. Wing Lim: [00:29:38] Yeah. All right. Good. Super. So thank you. I want to thank Kevin for sharing your wisdom. And thanks. I want to thank everybody for joining.


Dr. Kevin Mailo: [00:29:47] Thank you so much for listening to the Physician Empowerment Podcast. If you're ready to take those next steps in transforming your practice, finances or personal well-being, then come and join us at - P H Y S Empowerment dot ca - to learn more about how we can help. If today's episode resonated with you, I'd really appreciate it if you would share our podcast with a colleague or friend and head over to Apple Podcasts to give us a five star rating and review. If you've got feedback, questions or suggestions for future episode topics, we'd love to hear from you. If you want to join us and be interviewed and share some of your story, we'd absolutely love that as well. Please send me an email at [email protected]. Thank you again for listening. Bye.